Christianity and the Founding Fathers

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Christianity and the Founding Fathers 02.17.04 (8:35 pm)   [edit] This is, more or less, a response to a comment by brogonzo (in response to a comment I made) on whynot's blog. [i]You're wrong about the founding fathers. Read the Federalist Papers and John Locke's "Essay Concerning Human Understanding."[/i] "To me, it seems quite clear that America was by no means meant to be a "Christian" nation." [i]I don't know what you base your "feelings" about how America was founded. However, whether we as individuals are Christian or not, there's no sense in denying the fact that Christianity played a major role in the founding of the United States.[/i] Well, I base my feelings about the founding of America on what I've read and how I have understood the intentions and motivations of the founding fathers. There do seem to be some conflicting claims over the religious beliefs of the founding fathers, but I believe most of the evidence points to the fact that they were mostly, if not all, deists- not Christian. Deism was embraced by many of the founding fathers and whether Christian principles were involved in the framing of our constitution or not really isn't a relavent discussion. What is obvious is that religion was, from the beginning, meant to be maintained separate from the government. One of the primary motivations for establishing America was the desire for the freedom of religion- the freedom to worship or not worship as one pleased. "Christian principles" and Christianity are not the same thing, and it would be silly to try and determine the "principles" the nation was founded on. Christian principles may very well be inscribed in the laws laid out by our founders, but that doesn't mean that these laws were determined by Christianity. Similarly, I may hold similar values and moral standards as those held by Christians, but that doesn't make me a Christian. The founders of America sought a nation that allowed for the freedom of religion by maintaining a separation of the church and state. It is very much wrong to say that we are or were ever intended to be a Christian nation. Some quotes from the founders regarding religion: Thomas Jefferson: "Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law" "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man." John Adams: "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..." James Madison: "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." "And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Govt (sic) will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together." Benjamin Franklin: "When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not care to support it, so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." "I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."   posted by: WinstonSmith (reply) post date: 02.17.04 (6:15 pm) Here here! I adhere to Ben Franklin's wise judgment. Of course, the Founding Fathers drafted the constitution with the idea to have a firewall -- a clear separation between Church & State to avoid persecution of people based upon the bigots, tyrants & hypocrites whom they had observed and despised. Today, we have our own bigots, tyrants & hypocrites in the so-called "religious rights" who want to take us back to the bad ole' days of the 14th century superstition and feudalism. Insanity. Shrub is too stupid with no comprehension of history, to understand that by pandering to the religious ideologues & demogogues he is simply creating a climate of more hatred, intolerance and in-fighting. Maybe his handlers understand this: DIVIDE & CONQUER while we working people scratch each other's eyes out in order to eke out a living-- THESE CORPORATE RAPISTS ARE LAUGHING AT US, AND LAUGHING ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK! posted by: WhyNot (reply) post date: 02.18.04 (2:44 am) Dragonbait22, thanks for this. It helps me understand a little bit about where the US come from. Only a pity that, as WinstonSmith points out, what looked like a healthy way of laying foundations seems to have engaged reversed gear instead of going foward. When I hear things like (only a few days ago) "we need to revive the values of good god-fearing americans" .... geee.... well, no need for a comment, right? The one heart-warming thing is to see so many Americans like you guys being aware of the insanity of it all. Indeed, when researching on the Internet, most of the sources of information about this stuff comes from your fellow-country folks. This is great for it means you guys are determined, have integrity, are not afraid of saying "this stinks" (even when "this"="US policies"). But to beat the monstrous ever-more sophisticaed brainwashing machine churning away and cretinizing the population at large is a real challenge. Oh, and don't get me wrong, I'm not in the least anti-american - hey, I'm married to one, and I wouldn't trade her for any French girl! I'm anti-anything that is corrupt and exploits ppl. Right now, thanks to Bush, one of the worst governments in the world is the American one, and because of the USA's impact on the whole planet's balance, the US government is my main preoccupation. I'm equally incensed about my own - regarding many issues. But most of these are domestic ones, which are not likely to mean much to you; also, I'm more concerned with world-wide issues. Still.... if you want to hear rants & rave about things in France that suck big time, I can fulfill your wildest dreams. posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 02.18.04 (5:37 pm) Reply to: WhyNot Well, the way I see it, there will likely always be those who insist upon forcing religion to be a part of the government. But there will also always be those of us who see the dangers in that and are not afraid to voice our opinions on the matter. ;) Still.... if you want to hear rants & rave about things in France that suck big time, I can fulfill your wildest dreams. Lol, I'll encourage you to do both- write about how you feel on American politics and also what's going on in France. At the very least, maybe I'll learn something. :) posted by: mblog (reply) post date: 02.18.04 (6:07 pm) Reply to: WhyNot While I agree with much of what you say, I disagree with your assessment of the American government. The US government is not George Bush. It is the US Constitution and a set of laws and several hundred years of history. It has some bad parts to it, but these shall pass. Bush is temporary, and although things can be slow at times, the abuses of Bush will be overturned. Bush is trying to push his "Christian" agenda, but when he tries to talk about constitutional amendments, he knows that the support is not there. While some religious Christians favor a constitutional ban on gays, they tend to change their minds when somebody explains how our constitution works. Our constitution defines the framework of our government and establishes our rights as citizens. It is not a lawbook that takes our rights away. Amendments have been made to grant more rights to the people. The only time our Constitution was amended to take rights away, it was followed by the only repeal of an amendment to the constitution. (prohibition of alcoholic beverages) So Bush can rant about whatever he wants, but ultimately, he will not do lasting harm to the US. Sooner or later we will have another president who recognizes that we are part of the rest of the world and must behave responsibly if we want people to trust us. posted by: mblog (reply) post date: 02.18.04 (6:25 pm) The Federalist Papers do mention Christianity explicitly. It is mentioned in Federalist No. 19. It does not say that we are a Christian nation or should be one. It discusses other nations throughout the world that were founded on such principles, and how they evolved. It talked about how nations held together until they were split apart by controversy. it ends by saying, "The controversies on the subject of religion, which in three instances have kindled violent and bloody contests, may be said, in fact, to have severed the league." This was in reference to the Swiss, who ended up having opposing alliances in different parts of the country because of this schism. I can't see how anybody could read this and think that they wanted a Christian nation. The Federalist papers had the goal of moving us from the articles of Confederation to our Constitution, and it's the end result that shows what they wanted. The fact that our constitution was ratified shows exactly what the founding fathers thought, and the fact that it was amended by them showed where they intended it to go. Your Name: Your Comment:

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