God must exist: an epiphany of sorts

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God must exist: an epiphany of sorts 01.25.04 (6:21 pm)   [edit] I have just discovered what I believe to be the most convincing of all argument's for God's existence. The most common arguments are easily refuted, but I'm not so sure about this one. For example, many say that all things have a cause, therefore the universe must have a cause; this must be God. The obvious counter to this argument is the question of what created God. If all things must have a cause, so does God. Another argument, and the one I most vehemently disagree with, is based on morality. This argument states that without God there would be no right or wrong. However, morality is not dependent on religious belief, or a belief in God. All of humanity actively distinguishes between right and wrong; in fact, it is maladaptive and counter to survival to not exercise moral discretion in our decisions. There are consequences for any action, and to not realize these consequences is not a very stable way to live, and not conducive to longevity of life. Logic dictates that there must be proof of something in order for it to be rational to accept it as being true. The only 'irrefutable proof' of God's existence for many is that the Bible says so, God has shown them the way, or something similarly lacking in concrete evidence. So, there must be a reason for why people believe in something given so little factual evidence. Generally, I would state that the main function of religion is to provide answers to difficult questions, such as why and how we exist and what happens once we cease to exist. In this vein, I would assume that people choose to believe in God because this belief comforts them. However, it has occurred to me that it is not in the least comforting. God knows all, sees all, and is constantly aware of all your thoughts and actions. That's just creepy. Christianity's answer to the questions of how and why we came into being is that God created us in his image to "love him and enjoy him forever." (http://christiananswers.net/q...) What would God, a supreme being, need with millions of creatures worshipping Him, unless He is just that vain? Anyway, that's not really my point. My point is that's not the most comforting explanation of our origins of existence and the meaning of life. To think I'm just here to give love to my Creator doesn't really give my life that much meaning. Next, there is the explanation of what happens to us once we die. If we live a good life and worship God, we will go to Heaven. If we sin and do not repent, do not believe in and worship God, we will be sent to Hell for eternal damnation. This does provide a sense of justice, I suppose, but still is not that comforting when examining the nature of Heaven. Heaven is described as lacking all that which we enjoy here on earth and consisting of many things that we dislike. How is it comforting to view our final destination as a place void of pleasures like sex and consisting of constant church-like services, with singing and harp playing and such? (note: I am mostly just making fun of the notion of Heaven, taken from Mark Twain's Letters From the Earth; [url=http://www.positiveatheism.or...]Satan's third letter[/url])? Now, since a belief in God is not only lacking in factual evidence- making it illogical at best, irrational and dangerous at worst, to believe in God- but it also actually isn't that comforting to maintain a belief in a supreme being that constantly watches you and knows everything you do, the only other reason to believe God exists must be of a divine nature. Perhaps the belief in God is irrational because God in fact does exist and only wants certain members of His creation to know it, so He provides them with some divine knowledge of His existence. And this is what people really mean when they say that to understand that God exists you must first know the Holy Spirit. Hmm, did I just present a conspiracy theory of God's existence?   posted by: MissPerfection (reply) post date: 01.25.04 (3:40 pm) shhhhh! You aren't supposed to TELL everyone. ;) posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 01.25.04 (3:43 pm) Reply to: MissPerfection Haha, see I'm on to you religious types! I hope my discovery doesn't mean the world must end now... posted by: MissPerfection (reply) post date: 01.25.04 (6:29 pm) Reply to: DragonBait22 No, not now. But hey, all good things must end sometime. Oh wait... is the world good? Oh my! That could lead to a whole 'nuther discussion, couldn't it? LOL! posted by: therealspartacus007 (reply) post date: 01.25.04 (9:07 pm) Well, since anything an Omnipotent being does is necessarily arbitrary (unless He up and changes the definition of arbitrary for no reason; or maybe He has and just hasn't told anyone, or there are multiple definitions that work only when He wants and do not necessarily equal each other- but hey, He invented the Law of Identity anyway, so... I guess you get the point) posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 01.26.04 (9:07 am) Reply to: MissPerfection Indeed, it could. :) posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 01.26.04 (9:07 am) Reply to: therealspartacus007 Of course. posted by: sjelly (reply) post date: 01.26.04 (8:34 pm) Faith and Logic is something that contradicts each other. To logically prove that God exists is something difficult. Scientific theories have come and go in the past few millenium. But there is this theory about God that still supported by many after thousands and thousands of years. posted by: sjelly (reply) post date: 01.26.04 (8:40 pm) There is no question of who made God. God is a being that exists outside of time and space. Thus God does not need to be subjected to any scientific laws. That is the reason many believe in God. A supreme being which exists outside the Law of Nature with the ability to change the world to a believer's will. What many call "a blessing". posted by: Nivek (reply) post date: 01.26.04 (8:58 pm) Religion, Christianity in perticular, has all the answers, or so they tell you--and mostly illogical. When someone is severly sick and lives, they say: "Oh, it just wasn't his time to go", then, if a sick person does die, they say: "Well, it was just his time to go. He's with God now". It's that feel-good principle where no matter what happens, there's always an illogical answer for it. The problem is that they believe it to be true. Like preaching any slogan or platitude; tell me the details, show me the proof of what you say, give me the facts so I can believe it. That's why they call it "faith"...believing in something or someone without fact or logic. If one believes in a creator or "guide" to follow or plan their lives for them, they will never reach their full potential as a human being, with sound mind and pure rational judgement. If you grant your thoughts, your opinion, your soul, and your entire life to someone else, I'd say that that is no life at all, and you are destined to be miserable, as the religions want it--no rational thoughts and suffering just to die. Think of a life without pleasure, excitement, or happiness of any kind? posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 01.27.04 (5:57 pm) Reply to: sjelly So are you suggesting that since God's existence is not something that can be proven nor disproved beyond a doubt, and has existed for so long, while scientific theories, based in factual evidence, can be disproved, faith in the existence of God is superior to accepting a scientific theory? Facts are logically superior to faith-based reasoning and the fact that scientific theories have come and gone only demonstrates the importance of exercising rational thought; it does not demean the nature of fact-based logic. posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 01.27.04 (5:58 pm) Reply to: sjelly Okay, so prove God's existence. If you can't, then the question of who made God is valid, and my answer would be most likely man made God (not physically, of course). posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 01.27.04 (6:02 pm) Reply to: Nivek I agree, and think that it is absolutely important to consider the consequences of living a life based on the assumed will of a Creator, who may or may not exist, and living your life based on your will, what you see as the right path for yourself. Personally, I think it can be dangerous to base your life on the assumption that God exists and has certain demands of you. You lose quite a bit and gain nothing but fear. But that's just my opinion... :) posted by: Nivek (reply) post date: 01.27.04 (9:21 pm) Reply to: DragonBait22 And a rational opinion at that. One can absolutely fill their mind and their thoughts with the teachings of a religion, but every little thing you do--from waking in the morning, going to bed, and every thought in between--is dominated by the thought of a God, and following "His" way of thinking; not your own. This also leads to the major decisions you make--a spouse, abortion, children, etc.. It is very damaging, and sad when you think about what they have missed in life. The consequences are great. My thought has always been, that what if you devote your entire life to something--every day and every hour--only to die and discover it was all a lie? But mainly, you will never appreciate the essence of life...as an individual, as something real, and as the ultimate nature of our being; a rational and objective being. posted by: sjelly (reply) post date: 01.29.04 (2:11 am) Reply to: DragonBait22 before i prove god's existence, i would like to ask you, why are you so hard up to know that there is no God? you don't see christians going around asking atheist to prove the non-existence of God. posted by: sjelly (reply) post date: 01.29.04 (2:17 am) like gravity, to believe in the law of gravity means to believe that the laws on which the world operates is fixed aka the law of gravity will never change forever (which obviously is not true). people who believe in god simple don't believe in that the world operates on fixed laws :-). and to prove that the world operates on a fix set of laws or not is not possible because you need someone who is outside this world to indicate to you whether the world that we live in operates on a fix set of laws. therefore to the existence of god is based on faith...likewise the non-existence of god is also based on faith. posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 01.29.04 (12:48 pm) Reply to: sjelly You misunderstand my intentions. I don't think it can be proven that God doesn't exist, nor do I think you can prove God does exist. However, I think it is important to understand the reasons we believe whatever it is we choose to believe. It is important to question our beliefs so that we know how it is we came to accept these beliefs. That is all I try to promote. I enjoy the discussion of such topics as God's existence and the reason people believe or turn to religion, because it helps me understand my own views as well as those of others. Now, as for Christians not asking atheists to prove God doesn't exist, of course they don't! It is counter to logic to prove a negative such as that, it is impossible to prove something doesn't exist. posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 01.29.04 (12:52 pm) Reply to: sjelly "people who believe in god simple don't believe in that the world operates on fixed laws" That's an interesting statement and not one I've often heard from theists. Obviously, we must ultimately base our assumptions in faith- faith in God or faith in science. It is up to each individual to determine which is more logical and which is more beneficial. If the world doesn't operate under fixed laws, does it necessarily follow that a being outside the world creates it? My logic leads me to the conclusion that a supreme being does not exist. Interesting point though, thank you. Your Name: Your Comment:

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