| Religion Part II- The problem of evil |
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posted by: sporadic (reply) post date: 12.10.03 (4:32 pm) Link: http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/apologetics/evil/ge-comm.htm Excerpt: If God were all good, as you say, He would want to deal with the problem of evil. And if God were all powerful, as you say, then He would be able to deal with the problem of evil. Obviously, evil exists, therefore He is either not all good or He is not all powerful, or maybe He is neither. In any case, the presence of evil in the world disproves the Christian view of God. See how that argument works? It is called a defeater. This observation of an apparent contradiction defeats the Christian's view of God. Now of course if the argument is sound, then Christianity has been defeated. I think that is fair to say. I don't think the argument is sound, though. And we've talked in different ways about how Augustine has argued and C.S. Lewis has argued and others have unfolded this particular argument and for some it might have been complex. Well, I'm going to give you a short cut, because what Doug Geivett said really stuck in my mind. In his response Dr. Geivett questioned both of the premises. His question was, "What makes you think that taking away evil in the world has anything to do with God's strength?" Here is how it can be played out. This will make it very clear. When this comes up again I'm going to tell this story. Let's pretend that you claim to be the strongest person in the world. More than that, you are the strongest person in the universe. You can pick up an entire building. You are so strong that you can pick up an entire city. You are so strong you can pick up an entire country. In fact, if you had a place to stand, you could lift the entire planet, even the solar system. You have so much strength, you can do anything that strength allows you to do. This is your boast to me. "OK," I say, "let's see if you can prove it." "Just give me any test you want" you respond. "If you are so strong, then make a square circle." "I can't do that." "You're not very strong, are you?" "This has nothing to do with strength, does it? Because no matter how strong I am, I could never make a square circle, because making a square circle has nothing to do with power. It is a self- contradictory concept, having square circles. They can't be made by anybody regardless of how strong they are. This test is unrelated to the issue of power." Now, how does this tie into our discussion of the problem of evil? Simply this. God certainly is strong enough to obliterate evil from the earth or to have prevented it in the first place. No question about that. But let me ask you a question. Is it a good thing that God created human beings as free moral creatures, capable of making moral choices? It strikes me that the answer to that is yes. Because God is good--which is one of the things in question here--God created free moral creatures. But this changes everything, doesn't it? What makes you think that strength has anything to do with God creating a world in which there are genuinely free moral creatures and no possibility of doing wrong? You see, now we're back to square circles. It's just as ridiculous to ask God to create a world in which we have genuinely free creatures with no possibility to do wrong, as it is to ask Him to create a square circle. The task has nothing to do with His strength. It has to do with the nature of the problem. If you're going to have morally free creatures--that is, human beings that can make moral choices for themselves--and if God is good, then He is going to create creatures that will be truly morally free. But that entails, of necessity, at least the possibility of evil in the world. This has nothing to do with God's power. It is unrelated to the issue of power just like making square circles is unrelated to the issue of power. It relates to the nature of the good universe that God created, a universe that was populated by beings that were morally free. Morally free creatures by necessity, by definition, have the possibility of going bad. Now you know why this is not a good argument against the existence of God. It just doesn't apply. One could even argue there's a kind of category error here because in this particular case, according to Christianity, dealing with evil has nothing to do with strength. It has to do with the nature of the game itself. What's neat about the Christian point of view, is that God did the good thing by creating morally free creatures that went bad, yet still did the loving thing by cleaning up the mess man created in such a way that greater good results. Now that's the result of a Master mind. posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 12.10.03 (5:22 pm) Reply to: sporadic It is an error to claim that evil can exist in the universe and not be the responsibility of God IF God is the Creator of said universe. If God created the universe, did he not create EVERYTHING in the universe, including sin? Seems to me, God must be responsible for sin. Okay, so sin is a necessary outcome of morally free-willed individuals? Why? To allow us to choose to do good or evil? Again, why? There is no merit in doing evil, God supposedly punishes those who do evil, so why would He give us the possibility of doing evil if He is truly 100% good? I'm not saying that the problem of evil is a defeatist argument; in fact, I don't think it is, and I think I provided evidence as to how God can exist and still be responsible for evil, as He is. The question of evil does cause a discrepancy in the definition of God, a definition that can be altered in order to allow for evil to be created by God, as it would have to be if God created everything in the universe. You can either state that God is not all-powerful; that He had the omnipotence to create the universe, but not to prevent evil. This seems to make for a pretty flimsy argument for God, so most prefer to state that God is not wholly benevolent. Now, I'd argue that God is not benevolent regardless of the problem of evil, but that's just me. Regardless, God must have created evil; therefore He is not all-good. So long as you take the stance that God is either not entirely benevolent or not all-powerful, this does not disprove God's existence, only questions it. I'm not really sure what the whole square circle thing is about, but it certainly does nothing for me in terms of dismissing the problem of evil and God's omnipotence and benevolence. It's not a question of strength, really, but the fact that God had the power to create the universe would mean that He had the power to allow or not allow evil in the world. And besides, I'm sure you would claim that God could make a square circle since He is omnipotent. posted by: Edgar67 (reply) post date: 12.10.03 (11:44 pm) To DB22: You sure put a lot of energy arguing against the existence of someone you claim not to believe in. I find that odd. I mean, there are many things that I do not believe in, but I think it would be a waste of my time to try and convince others not to believe in them also. Isn't there something that you are passionate about? Or do you just hate God? I'm not trying to tell you to stop doing what you are doing, I just find it odd. posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 12.11.03 (8:36 am) Reply to: Edgar67 I'm not trying to convince anyone not to believe in God, I'm only explaining why I don't. There are a lot of things I am passionate about- defending my beliefs and ideals is certainly one of them. No, I don't hate God; how could I hate something I don't believe in? All I'm trying to do is explain why I feel that religious belief is irrational and why I think that you are wasting your life by relying on God rather than yourself. I don't expect to convince you that God doesn't exist, I only want to clear up some of the misunderstandings associated with atheism. |
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