| Liberty in our lifetime? |
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posted by: therealspartacus007 (reply) post date: 06.11.04 (1:11 pm) I'm a member too- and you don't have to be a Libertarian to sign up. There are nearly 6,000 members already, and the number includes home schoolers, drug freedom advocates, gun rights proponents, minorities, etc. posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 06.11.04 (1:13 pm) Reply to: therealspartacus007 Cool, so maybe I'll see you in New Hampshire? ;) posted by: jbfs (reply) post date: 06.11.04 (1:33 pm) "The United States was founded on the principles of freedom and liberty" that's an interesting concept... not sure how well it matches up with the history books though... I think if you add on "for rich white men" then it would be a bit more accurate... not sure how many american indians felt they were given freedoms and liberties... or kidnapped africans... or women... or... well you get the point :) I have a hard time seeing the united states as being anything more than an imperialistic conquest (one that didn't go terribly well for the various european antions that wished to maintain control over the colonies) posted by: therealspartacus007 (reply) post date: 06.11.04 (2:05 pm) Reply to: jbfs Yes, but we have been moving in the general right direction, slowly, but at a more rapid pace than anyone else in history. And even though oppression is obviously a huge part of our government, the core principles, liberty and equality, nearly all Americans agree on. posted by: jbfs (reply) post date: 06.11.04 (2:44 pm) Reply to: therealspartacus007 "anyone else in history"? Anyone else in recorded history? Anyone else in European/Asian history? I just don't see that as holding true for groups such as the Iroquois nations, who were not always exactly peaceful with each other, but are now very much so and have been for some time now... posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 06.11.04 (4:33 pm) Reply to: jbfs If you read the Declaration of Independence, you'll see the principles of freedom and liberty I alluded to. The colonization of America was certainly not to bring freedom to the natives, nor was it to grant freedom to the settlers. But the actual founding of the United States of America was based on the principles of freedom. The point about native Americans, women, African slaves, etc, is relevant, of course, but the inentions of the founding of America were more in line with true freedom than you make it out to be. And, as America compared to other nations at the time, it was quite progressive in providing freedom to the citizens. posted by: juniperflux (reply) post date: 06.13.04 (7:41 am) I know this is a silly question... but what about the other 1.5 million people already living in New Hampshire? 20,000 free-staters are just supposed to head up there and take over? "As our government continually expands its powers, we as individual citizens lose our liberties" Hmmmm... this sounds worryingly conservative. posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 06.13.04 (4:21 pm) Reply to: juniperflux Well, the idea isn't to change things miraculously all at once- it will take time. But New Hampshire was chosen because it alraedy has a strong base of limited government activists. It may be a bit idealistic, but the hope is to get enough people involved in changing the government that, over time, we can change the system to be geared more toward true liberty. "this sounds worryingly conservative." How so? :) |
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