What I've learned about Catholicism

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What I've learned about Catholicism 03.31.04 (10:59 pm)   [edit] In my last post, I asked for any Catholics that were willing to to explain their religion to me, as I had never found a Catholic willing to discuss such matters. [url=http://juniperflux.tblog.com]Juniperflux[/url] did an excellent job of explaining her former faith. Unfortunately, I had anticipated most of the responses she had to offer for my questions. And the fun, as well as frustrating, part of discussions such as these is that there is little hope of reconciling all the differences, and the arguments can easily go back and forth indeterminately. The questions I asked involved the problem of evil, that is, why an all-loving and all-powerful being would allow evil to exist in the world. As was explained by several commentors, the basic premise is that God created man and gave him free will so that he could choose to love Him, thus the faith would be true. I am all about truth and believing in things in earnest, so this aspect is somewhat appealing. However, it still doesn't appease my skeptical nature. I mentioned that it makes little sense that God would need such recognition, that it would be prideful of God to desire faithful devotion from His creation. This, of course, goes against the idea of a perfect being, as vanity and egotistical desire would be imperfections. It was pointed out that considering God's motives in such a light is applying human traits to God. Since anthropomorphism is the basis for our understanding of God, it makes little sense to me for some traits of God to be human-like while others are explained away as impossible to be attributed to God, a perfect being. This contradiction- that if God is a perfect being He would have no need for our faith- is basically a question of God's motive. According to Catholic faith, God's motive is beyond our finite capabilities to understand. This basically puts an end to this particular discussion, as at this point you must decide either to accept that you cannot know certain things and choose to have faith, or you can decide that there is no reason to have faith in something you cannot understand. [url=http://drforbush.tblog.com]DrForbush[/url] pointed out the ways Catholics understand God and His creation: [i]...He also reveals Himself to us through contemplative prayer and meditation. So, when new information about the Universe is revealed through scientific discovery a Catholic isn’t tied down to assuming we already knew the answers. [/i] I'd say that's rather convenient. There is also scant proof that what a person experiences through meditation or prayer is actually God revealing Himself. I would say that it is more likely an instilled belief in God that results in the [i]belief[/i] that a person is experiencing something. Cultural traditions and personal beliefs dictate the experiences a person has in their own mind. Also, isn't there a better way for God to reveal Himself? I mean, if He cares about us so much that He wants us to be saved by having faith in Him, why doesn't he give us true reasons to believe He exists? Testing our faith seems cruel to me. I agree with DrForbush when he says that without free will and without sin in the world, the relationship between man and God would be nothing less than that of a slave and his master, thus demeaning the relationship. But again, I don't understand the necessity of such a relationship for God, especially given that the stakes are so high for us humans- if we don't have faith in Him, he punishes us for all eternity. Why does God need us to love Him? I appreciate all the comments regarding Catholicism/Christianity and hope that this has cleared up some things. Any additional thoughts are more than welcome.   posted by: RedTigress (reply) post date: 03.31.04 (8:57 pm) Still working on my 'thesis' for you on Judaism! It's becoming bigger and bigger! Hope to get it to you soon! :) Interesting post. :) posted by: therealspartacus007 (reply) post date: 03.31.04 (9:27 pm) I also remember DrForbush remarking that "we don't know why God does what He does" (rough paraphrase) That is the dead-end of EVERY argument you will get in with an honest Christian- a blank-out. posted by: chicalookate (reply) post date: 04.01.04 (7:48 am) As another recovering catholic I will put my thoughts in, not sure if this is what you were looking for. The American Catholic church tends to be more lenient and more willing to bend the rules then some countries that are predominitly Catholic. (I was an alter girl before the pope okayed it) There is a comediene (Kathleen Madigan) who is says "Were Catholic we don't read the bible, we read the bulletin" Which is pretty true. Maybe that is why Catholics have a hard time explaining Dogma. I went to Catholic high school and couldn't tell you much about the catholic faith... only how it was taught in my church. This is just a thought... and I have been known to be wrong. posted by: DrForbush (reply) post date: 04.01.04 (12:59 pm) I would also like to point out the difference between need and want. God doesn't need anything because he has everything. Instead, I would suggest that he wants love - but he doesn't need it. Also, the vanity metaphore would mean that God needed recognition. I believe he may want recognition, but he doesn't need it. posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 04.01.04 (3:23 pm) Reply to: DrForbush In the last post, you made a comment explaining free will by saying: "God needs someone that is free to love him." Besides, even if God doesn't actually need our love or our faith, why would He even want it? Why would it matter one way or the other to a perfect being, and how could a perfect being want anything? posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 04.01.04 (3:28 pm) Reply to: chicalookate I think what you're saying is true for many Catholics, at least those I have encountered. There does seem to be a greater focus on worship without knowing exactly what is behind the worship. A friend of mine attended Catholic high school and she didn't seem to know much about her faith at all, and she'd never discuss it. Thanks for your comment. :) posted by: DrForbush (reply) post date: 04.01.04 (3:33 pm) Reply to: DragonBait22 I can't answer that one, perhaps you should ask God? Maybe he created us so that he could experience love because that was something that he wanted. You say that he could do anything, perhaps this is the method he chose to do something that he wanted to do. posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 04.01.04 (4:46 pm) Reply to: DrForbush ...perhaps you should ask God? I don't know, I'd feel kind of silly asking some being I don't think exists questions- I don't ask Santa to bring me gifts anymore, either. ;) posted by: billyv (reply) post date: 04.01.04 (8:13 pm) It is a shame that more Christians can't defend their faith. I do believe that in the present state of our post-Christian country that people are less interested in Christians "proving" God exists. The thing that I hope Christians do instead is relate to you how they have experienced God. The problem is so few of us display lives that really seem like that have been transformed by God's power. I think that says more about our faith than it does about God. If more of us displayed the evidence of a changed life and we were truly committed to loving Jesus and loving others as Jesus loved them, we wouldn't need to debate the issues, our lives would be our argument. posted by: therealspartacus007 (reply) post date: 04.01.04 (9:18 pm) Reply to: billyv But there are people of most faiths and philosophies that lead that kind of life. Wouldn't the Dalai Lama prove Buddhism true? Wouldn't Ghandi prove Hinduism true? posted by: Wizard (reply) post date: 04.01.04 (9:39 pm) It seems to me you are asking the wrong people. God created man, gave man freewill, and gave man domion over all creation. God didn't have to do it, but created us and the universe by Grace. It was God's grace that set up the covenent with Abraham, and God's grace that created the Jewish nation. From that nation God sent his only son to live life on earth as a human to be the perfect example of how we are to live our lives, obidient to God by our choice, even to the point of dying for our faith. For Christ died, and was raised to be the perfect atonement sacrifice for our sin and He was raised to show that He is lord over death. There is a lot more to it than just this though. If you are truly interested in learning about any faith, I would suggest going to 1. A local church/synagogue and asking a minister/rabbi your questions. Or 2. sign up for a class at a college that offers classes in theology. You don't need to believe to learn. But you should learn before you critisize. Yes many Christians find it difficult to defend the faith and many defend it in a manner that some find lacking. However, we are all human, and we learn as we grow in our faith. posted by: chicalookate (reply) post date: 04.02.04 (4:27 am) Reply to: DragonBait22 I thought about it some more last night and here are some new thoughts... For centuries mass was said in Latin and no one but the priests understood. (Also the priest used to be behind a screen so the people couldn't see him) I think the concept was that you didn't need to see or understand what was going on to be be moved by what was happening and that it would take away some of the specialness if it was said in a common tounge. (Also, I think there was a belief that the members of the church weren't the smartest) Even after Vatican II (not that long ago) I think people were just used to the repitition without understanding. They just say that is faith... I don't need to understand, I just believe. Again, this is just my opinion. posted by: juniperflux (reply) post date: 04.02.04 (1:11 pm) just for the record, I wouldn't say that catholicism is my former faith exactly. I'm not practicing, but then again I am not practicing anything else either. I would say that these days I'm more agnostic than anything else... but I haven't completely given up the faith, yet. I still find myself praying to St. Anthony when I can't find something. :) Anyway, it was fun talking about the church, even if I didn't manage to sound very convincing... even to myself. PS: I love your blog - it sparks great dialogue. And look! It would appear that we have least one other (recovering) catholic on t-blog! posted by: therealspartacus007 (reply) post date: 04.02.04 (9:38 pm) Reply to: AJMDieringer God created us, so He owns us? Do your parents own you? posted by: cabdriver (reply) post date: 04.04.04 (11:19 am) You say that saying "God's motives are beyond our comprehension" would end this discussion abruptly. Here's a scenario: A farmer got his cow to plough the field. To the cow, its just walking up and down, up and down for no apparent reason..Oh and maybe to get its hooves all muddy. The cow does not realise that its walking up and down in crucial to the farming process. Now picture yourself as the cow and God as the farmer.. think all you want you will never understand God's motives...like how the cow does not understand why he needs to go back and forth in a muddy field to plough the land. but the cow dutifully does its job with the only knowledge that it would get a nice meal at the end of the day. So faith is like that, dutifully do what God does knowing that you'll get a reward at the end of the day.(or "nicely called end of times") That is faith. So take a leap of fatih and believe in God. DUring your journey as a believer, you might just prove youself right or wrong about God. After all, like a scientific experiment, you have to believe in your hypothesis before experimenting further and see if the hypotesis turns out to be true or not. posted by: compass (reply) post date: 04.04.04 (11:31 am) Like Santa Clause, a child faithfully believes in that theory till he finds out one day that Santa Claus does not exists. Compare that to a kid who has never believed in Santa Claus, never thinking that there is an unknown source of presents. True he is proven right when he is 14 or 15. but did he lived a happier childhood without Santa Claus? Does he have anything to look foward to as a child? Does he ahve any motives to do good? (so that Santa would give him presents) I would much rather be the kid who believed in Santa and proven wrong at the end. After all, this "Santa" guy has made me try to be a better person, has gave me a day in the whole year to look foward too and a little bit of meaning to life as a child. posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 04.05.04 (8:17 am) Reply to: Wizard Well, I went to church for years- I think that's why I don't understand religion. I've studied theology- that's why I know there are ways of explaining religious faith, and why I'm surprised so few are able to do so. posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 04.05.04 (8:23 am) Reply to: AJMDieringer Well, why does a perfect being need anything? And if He cares so much about saving us from sin and eternal damnation- things that He created, (1) why did He create them in the first place, and (2) why wouldn't He just change the nature of sin or protect us from evil in a more productive way than sending His son to die? You can explain sin away as caused by man's free will, but if God chose to intervene by sending His son to die, surely He could do more to 'save' us. And if He loves us so much, why would He create hurricanes, earthquakes, and floods, evil beyond our control? posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 04.05.04 (8:25 am) Reply to: juniperflux Thanks so much juniper. :) It seems that many Christians are willing to discuss their faith, but I still don't think I've heard from any true, practicing Catholics. Oh well, I tried. :) posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 04.05.04 (8:30 am) Reply to: compass Santa is the perfect analogy: Does some all-knowing, jolly guy bring us presents at the end of the year to reward us for doing good, or do we reward ourselves when we choose to do good? In other words, are the actions themselves the end, rather than the judgment made by some being that may or may not exist? You say it's better for a child to do good deeds under the false impression that he will be rewarded because at least he has a reason to do good, than for a child not to do good deeds because he knows he won't be rewarded or punished. What about the child who knows nothing of this Santa myth and does good deeds regardless? Would you advocate false morality over acting morally based on true consequences rather than the presumed consequences of being judged by some being that may or may not exist? posted by: DragonBait22 (reply) post date: 04.05.04 (8:32 am) Reply to: AJMDieringer Just a tip for future reference, Bible quotes do very little to convince atheists. If you are saying that the Bible proves that God created you, prove that the Bible is accurate and trustworthy. Your Name: Your Comment:

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